MR. LEHRER: -- we're going to a new question. Education. Governor Bush, both of you have promised dramatically to change dramatically public education in this country. But of the public money spent on education, only 6 percent of it is federal money.

GOV. BUSH: Right.

MR. LEHRER: You want to change 100 percent of public education with 6 percent of the money. Is that possible?

GOV. BUSH: (Laughs.) Well, I tell you, we can make a huge difference by saying, "If you receive federal money, we expect you to show results." Let me give you a story about public ed, if I might, Jim. It's about Kipp (ph) Academy in Houston, Texas. It's a -- it's a charter school run by some people from Teach for America. Young folks that said, "Well, I'm going to do something good for my country. I want to teach." A guy named Michael runs the school. It's a school full of so-called at-risk children. It's how we unfortunately label certain children. It means basically they can't learn. It's a school of strong discipline and high standards. It's one of the best schools in Houston. And here are the key ingredients: high expectations, strong accountability. What Michael says is, "Don't put all these rules on us. Just let us teach and hold us accountable for every grade." And that's what we do. And as a result, these mainly Hispanic youngsters are some of the best learners in Houston, Texas.

That's my vision for public education all around America. Many of you viewers don't know, but Laura and I sent our girls to public school. They went to Austin High School. And many of the public schools are meeting the call. But unfortunately, a lot of schools are trapping children in school that just won't teach and won't change. So here's the role of the federal government: one is to change Head Start into a reading program; two is to say that if you want to access reading money, you can do so, because the goal is for every single child to learn to read. There must be through K through 2 diagnostic tools, teacher training money available.

Three, we've got to consolidate federal programs to free districts, to free the schools, to encourage innovators like Michael to let schools reach out beyond the confines of the current structure to recruit teach-for-the-children-type teachers.

Four, we're going to say if you receive federal money, measure -- third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade -- and show us whether or not children are learning to read and write and add and subtract, and if so, there will be a bonus plan and -- but if not, instead of continuing to subsidize failure, the money will go to the parent so the parent can choose a different public school. The federal money attributed to the child will go to the parent for public school or charter school or tutorial or Catholic school. What I care about is children and so does Michael Feinberg (sp), and you know what, it can happen in America with the right kind of leadership.

MR. LEHRER: Vice President Gore?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Look, we agree on a couple of things on education. I strongly support new accountability; so does Governor Bush. I strongly support local control; so does Governor Bush. I'm in favor of testing as a way of measuring performance -- every school, every school district, have every state test the children. I've also proposed a voluntary national test from the fourth grade and eighth grade, and a form of testing that the governor has not endorsed. I think that all new teachers ought to be tested, including in the subjects that they teach. We've got to recruit a hundred thousand new teachers, and I have budgeted for that. We've got to reduce the class size so that the student who walks in has more one-on-one time with the teacher. We ought to have universal pre-school, and we ought to make college tuition tax deductible, up to $10,000 a year.

I'd like to tell you a quick story. I got a letter today as I left Sarasota, Florida. I'm here with a group of 13 people from around the country who help me prepare, and we had a great time, but two days ago we ate lunch at a restaurant, and the guy who served us lunch got me a letter today.

His name is Randy Ellis (sp). He has a 15-year-old daughter named Kaylee (sp) who is in Sarasota High School. Her science class was supposed to be for 24 students. She is the 36th student in that classroom; sent me a picture of her in the classroom. They can't squeeze another desk in for her, so she has to stand during class. I want the federal government, consistent with local control and new accountability, to make improvement of our schools the number one priority so Kaylee (sp) will have a desk and can sit down in a classroom where she can learn.

MR. LEHRER: All right. So, having heard the two of you, voters have just heard the two of you, what's the difference? What's the choice between the two of you on education?

GOV. BUSH: Well, the first is -- the difference is -- there is no new accountability measures in Vice President Gore's plan. He says he's for voluntary testing. You can't have voluntary testing. You must have mandatory testing. You must say that if you receive money, you must show us whether or not children are learning to read and write and add and subtract. That's the difference. You may claim you've got mandatory testing, but you don't, Mr. Vice President. And that is a huge difference.

Testing is the cornerstone of reform. You know how I know? Because it's the cornerstone of reform in the state of Texas. Republicans and Democrats came together and asked the question, What can we do to make our public education the best in the country? And we've done a long way working together to do so, and the cornerstone is to have strong accountability. In return for money, and in return for flexibility, we're going to ask you to show us whether or not -- and we ask them to post the results on the Internet. We encourage parents to take a look at the comparative results of schools. We've got a strong charter school movement that I signed the legislation to get started in the state of Texas.

I believe if we find poor children trapped in schools that won't teach, we need to free the parents. I think we need to expand education savings accounts; that's something the vice president's -- the vice presidential running mate supports. No, there's big differences of opinion. He won't support freeing local districts from the strings of federal money.

MR. LEHRER: How do you see the differences?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Well, first of all, I do have mandatory testing. I think the governor may not have heard what I said clearly. The voluntary national test is in addition to the mandatory testing that we require of states -- all schools, all school districts, students themselves, and required teacher testing, which goes a step farther than Governor Bush has been willing to go.

Here are -- here are a couple of differences though, Jim.

Governor Bush is in favor of vouchers, which take taxpayer money away from public schools and gives them to private schools that are not accountable for how the money is used and don't have to take all applicants. Now, private schools play a great role in our society. All of our children have gone to both public schools and private schools. But I don't think private schools should have a right to take taxpayer money away from public schools at a time when Kaylee Ellis (sp) is standing in that classroom.

Let me give you another example. I went to a school in Dade County, Florida where the facilities are so overcrowded that children have to eat lunch in shifts, with the first shift for lunch starting at 9:30 in the morning.

Look, this is a funding crisis all around the country. There are fewer parents of school-age children in the vote -- as a percentage of the voting population, and there's the largest generation of students ever. We're in an Information Age when learning is more important than ever. Ninety percent of our kids go to public schools. We have to make it the number one priority: modernize our schools, reduce the class size, recruit new teachers, give every child a chance to learn with one-on-one time in a quality -- high-quality, safe school.

If it's a failing school, shut it down and reopen it under a new principal with a turnaround team of specialists, the way Governor Jim Hunt does in North Carolina.

Here's another difference. The governor, if it's a failing school, would leave the children in that failing school for three years and then give a little bit of money to the parents, a down payment on a down payment for private school tuition, and pretend that that would be enough for them to go out and go to a private school. It's an illusion.

MR. LEHRER: We've got to move on.

GOV. BUSH: Well, wait a minute.

MR. LEHRER: Thirty seconds, Governor.

GOV. BUSH: Okay.

MR. LEHRER: Okay.

GOV. BUSH: Yeah. First of all, most good governance is at the state level. See, here's the mentality: I'm going to make the state do this. I'm going to make the state do that. All I'm saying is if you spend money, show us results, and test every year, which you do not do, Mr. Vice President. You do not test every year. You can say you do into the cameras, but you don't, unless you've changed your plan here on the stage.

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: I didn't say that. I didn't say that.

GOV. BUSH: Secondly -- and you need to test every year, because that's where you determine whether or not children are progressing to excellence.

Secondly, one of the things that we've got to be careful about in politics is throwing money at a system that has not yet been reformed. More money is needed, and I spend more money. But step one is to make sure we reform the system, to have the system in place that leaves no child behind, to stop this business about asking, "Gosh, how old are you?" If you're 10, we're going to put you here. If you're 12, we'll put you here. And start asking the question, "What do you know?" And if you don't know what you're supposed to know, we'll make sure you do early before it is too late.

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